TDE Lore - Battles

[virumor]

That would explain why the Elves are still talking about meeting Fenvarien, then.

So basically the purpose of the party is to "break the cycle" and save Tie'Shianna from being destroyed by the hordes of the Nameless one? Was the city transported into this globule as a final desperate saving resort?

[virumor]

I played some more Phileasson's Secret and indeed, Tie'Shianna is located in a globule wherein time goes back several thousands of years.

I am afraid that lore is often badly represented in Drakensang series, especially in english version of the first game. Many important details from lore are omitted or just badly interpretted. But I dont know how much info is given about Pyrdacor/Pyr in Philleassons Secret.

Phileasson's Secret actually contains a fair amount of interesting Elven lore.

I've been able to dig up the following so far:

1) The Elven pantheon:

NURTI, creator of worlds and giver of life.

The children of Nurti are: ZERZAL (lynx-headed bringer of death), PYR (dragon-bodied ruler over the elements, aka Pyrdacor), ORIMA (blind goddess of fate) and SIMIA (god of arts).

I wonder if the Aventurian Elves still follow this pantheon, or have an entirely different pantheon altogether. The Elves belonging to the Storm Sentinel tribe seemed to worship nature itself, for instance, rather than any gods.

2) Pyrdonia (aka Pardona), high-priestess of Pyr is mentioned, and Zeolith, one of her followers who left Tie'Shianna for the Lands beyond the Mists.

3) The Six elemental cities are mentioned:

MANDALYA, City of Fire
TIE'SHIANNA, City of Ore
SIMYALA, City of Earth
ISIRIEL, City of Water
VAYAVINDA, City of Air
OMETHEON, City of Ice

These cities contain the elemental keys; but since Elves are supposed to have lost dominion over the elemental keys to the humans, I wonder what happened to these keys... are they still in the Elven cities? Are these Elven cities still populated?

If I'm not mistaken, for instance, the City of Ice was conquered by Pardona's hordes.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

That would explain why the Elves are still talking about meeting Fenvarien, then.

So basically the purpose of the party is to "break the cycle" and save Tie'Shianna from being destroyed by the hordes of the Nameless one? Was the city transported into this globule as a final desperate saving resort?

I think yes, but I can't say for sure, since i STILL haven't played the game !

1) The Elven pantheon:

NURTI, creator of worlds and giver of life.

The children of Nurti are: ZERZAL (lynx-headed bringer of death), PYR (dragon-bodied ruler over the elements, aka Pyrdacor), ORIMA (blind goddess of fate) and SIMIA (god of arts).

Modern-times Elves (yes, even those of The River Of Time !) regard them differently :

Nurti = the principle of growing, of life as such
Zerzal = the principle of decay, the end of living, so to say
Orima = principle of ... well, I don't exactly know
Simia = ... well ... "ancestor", I think even regarded as the first elven king ... but in general regarded as a "force" or a person ? of arts, of invention ... in similar aspects like Tsa

The most interesting thing in this is, however, that these Gods aren't Gods anymore - at least not to modern Elves.
They're principles instead - or "normal" persons.

If you listen to the Elves of The River Of Time, one of them mentiones "zerza & nurti", I think I remember, and that means to them "decay and growing".
They've become rather principles, or mybe even entities, but rather principles, but at least no more Gods at all.

[virumor]

I finished the expansion and now everything is clear.

The story is pretty good and it is interesting to play for lore buffs.

[Farflame]

If you listen to the Elves of The River Of Time, one of them mentiones "zerza & nurti", I think I remember, and that means to them "decay and growing".
They've become rather principles, or mybe even entities, but rather principles, but at least no more Gods at all.

Yes, but principles are also often represented as living entities/gods.

And BTW - afaik its not nurti and zerza. Its "Zerzal" (decay) and "Nurdra" (grow). In first Drakensang Gwendala use these words too.

So basically the purpose of the party is to "break the cycle" and save Tie'Shianna from being destroyed by the hordes of the Nameless one? Was the city transported into this globule as a final desperate saving resort?

I finished the expansion and now everything is clear.

So did you break the cycle in the end? Can elves from the town live freely now in own time? (spoiler question)


-----
I hope that Xeledon will write here soon instead of mocking someone in Alveran.

[virumor]

Spoiler

Tie'Shianna within the globule was a magical construct by Fenvarien to keep his daughter Amariel safe. He put her there before the real Tie'Shianna fell with two 'guardians', living the final day in Tie'Shianna's history when it fell to the hordes of the Nameless One over and over again - until he could go and save her.

In the year before River of Time Phileasson freed Fenvarien; Fenvarien then asked Phileasson to fetch his daughter - and that's where the player character and his/her party come in.

During the game, one of the guardians turns out to be a traitor who made a deal with the Nameless One - hand over the Starstone (a legendary powerful Elven artifact used to keep the magical construct active) to the Nameless One in exchange for Amariel.

[Farflame]

Did TDE creators revealed more about Rakorium's expedition In 1025 BF to Rashtul Tower? It was that journey when he was carried off by cultists of Pyrdacor and rescued by some heroes. This experienced was probably one of the most important for his conclusion that there is some big saurian conspiracy.

I think that these events are part of the adventure-module "Erben des Zorns" (something like "heirs of rage"). But as I haven't read this module, I actually don't know any details.

Hey, fans of TDE. Nobody is able to tell us someting about the story in "Erben des Zorns"? At least in german...

Please, come to discuss with us. We are not going to eat you. We like dragons but we are not monsters.

Where is our lore master Xeledon?

[Alrik Fassbauer]

No idea, I don't have this book.

You could, however, ask here : http://ulisses-forum.de/showthread.php? ... ost&t=2766

[Xeledon]

I hope that Xeledon will write here soon instead of mocking someone in Alveran.

Yes, it took me quite a bit longer to post again here, mostly because I was quite busy planning my holiday-trip to Iceland next week. But now, be prepared for another monster-post...

Tharun is actually far less interesting to me than Uthuria, personally ...

At the moment, the situation has become quite a bit more complicated as Ulisses now completely owns TDE and unfortunately has begun some strange organisational restructuring, which narrowed down the circle of authors working on TDE yet another time. We'll have to wait, how it all will turn out, but Thomas Römer, who would have been responsible for Uthuria is no longer in charge of TDE activities, while Uthuria will be transferred to different writers and its release date has been postponed. We'll have to wait, what will happen to this project.



On writing fan-fiction: I somehow think that there is pretty much fan-fiction in TDE, as most of the official material and especially the novels are "just" fan-fiction. Yet I understand your reasons for not trying to write for TDE very well, Alrik. I also would rather write a novel in my own universe than in Aventuria. Maybe some day this project might even see the light of day, at the moment there are just some unpublishable fragments of it...



While reading the fourth volume of the campaign I discovered something really interesting (which kind of annoyed me as it didn't fit at all into the world of TDE).

Spoiler

At the end of the campaign, the heroes want to retrieve something rather special for the upcoming battle of dragons at the finale of the campaign. And it has to be them to get it, because the dragons themselves are to big to enter a temple. This is said to have been a kind of security mechanism of Pyrdacor so that only the Old Dragons could get the thing, as they are the only ones to be able to transform themselves into a human shape. Actually I don't think that this fits into the image of dragons at all. Even Mantra'kim can use human shape, Malgorra can, but not the big dragons, some of whom are real experts in transformation magic? Really, you can't be serious about that!

What we learn from this is at least that the question of human-to-dragon-sex we discussed above is suddenly becoming far more interesting. If Shafir is not able to turn himself into a human shape, how can he and Aldare have a son and why is he a human?

You mean that all Old Dragons like Teclador, Nosulgor etc... have "essence" of Pyrdacor in their blood? How could they? I thought that only Pyrdacor's sons or daughters can have some.

No, you are of course right, I somehow didn't put it into the right words. Only the descendants of Pyrdacor bear pieces of his essence. But there are descendants of the other Old Dragons as well that bear pieces of the essence of the respective Dragon. Yet, for the campaign itself, only the descendants of Pyrdacor are really important.

Malgorra has a sister?

Yep, she is caleld Yalstene and plays some important role in the "Erben des Zorns"-adventure module. I think, at the end she is defeated and retreats herself to Zze'Tha. So I guess at the time of "Drakensang" she is still living there, licking her wounds. Yet, the real context was somehow more complex and I don't remember it in detail at the moment. I think, Yalstene and Malgorra are not the best friends, so to speak, and Malgorra at some point disguised herself as Yalstene and took over the control of the dragons' cults in her name. But I might also mix things up a bit here.

And what about Umbracor and other Ancient Dragons? Did they went inside Zze Tha when Pardona opened the gate or you didnt get there yet (probably in 4th book)? Is there some hint about the fate of Teclador, Aldinor or Nosulgor?

Spoiler

No, for some reasons the authors didn't want to put all the big dragons there, thus creating some kind of almighty-magical-creature-overkill and revealing also some secrets still left unrevealed (the true nature of Nosulgor for example). There is a six-headed dragon created by the Old Dragons as a "essence nexus" that in fact has the ability to summon all descendants of the six Old Dragons at Zze Tha for a meeting. Yet, in the campaign only two of his heads are awakened and thus only the descendants of Pyrdacor and Fuldigor are summoned.

Is there hinted who created this unstable gate? It seems like some mage tried to open the gate in the past but was only partially successfull. Or is it some sort of "relic" that appeared there when the globule was created?

Sorry, but I'm not aware of any information about that. There might be something in "Erben des Zorns", but as I haven't read this adventure module so far, I don't even know if there is.

You are probably right, because Drakensang mountain was meeting point of dragons and it seems natural to have there some gate to Dragon Island. But in the game there is said its gate to limbus, so it must be text mistake. Another explanation is that in fact the dwarves dont know where the gate is leading so they talk gibberish, but why would they talk about limbus? Its probably mistake.

Well, the obvious thing is, that any portal leading from one place on Dere to another must lead through the limbus. So in fact the gates are really leading into the limbus and from there by a shortcut to some place else, e.g. the Dragon Island, Zze Tha or some kind of globule. The limbus itself is just a kind of borderland with no permanent inhabitants (and most of the non-permanent inhabitants being demons). So you can say that these are gates to the limbus, but the limbus cannot be the final station in this passage.

Well, I doubt dragons have family bonds like people. They are strong individuals and very teritorial monsters. Or do some dragons live in groups, small tribes?

Some of the smaller ones actually do (like the westwind-dragons and smaller ones), but the really big dragons usually live alone. If you think about what such a big animal might require as food rations, you may understand that they claim huge territories for themselves and their nature also just isn't up for permanent company. I guess, mothers would look after baby dragons for some time, but they also might just leave the eggs alone and let them hatch and grow up for themselves, I don't recall any clear information on that in TDE-publications. There might be some exemptions of big dragons living together, but usually they stay on their own. Some of them (e.g. Apep) use smaller dragons as a kind of entourage, messengers and spies, though, but I don't think they would want them to live in their cave permanently.

Dragon cultists - There are more groups of dragon cultists and most of them worship Pyrdacor. I wonder if they cooperate. It shouldnt be problem for Malgorra and her Mantra'kim to get more groups together (she probably did it but I doubt all dragon cultists fough for her).

In fact, Malgorra got many of them to work for her independently. So they all fought on her side without really knowing of each other. As most of them have really weird and mixed-up, but also very strong beliefs, I guess they would fight each other at least as hard as Catholics and Protestants did in the seventeenth century (Thirty Years' War, etc.), though with less resources. Thus, Malgorra decided to control them in secret and not uniting them officially.

In 1031 BF there were kidnapped heir of the Kosh throne - Anshold of Boarstock (Eberstamm) and his wife Nadyana. I found out that they actually escaped from castle with the help of some friends and went to Firntrutz (?) in good reason. BUt I didnt know that reason. A ton of german text is hard obstacle for me .

I am not sure, if I mix this up with another thing, but I guess that it's just a small anecdote in Aventurian history without any real consequence for the metaplot so far. If I remember correctly, they wanted desperately to have children, but had no luck with it. Then they were taken away by some friends and brought to some sort of magical (?) place where they did some adult things I don't want to know any details about and returned some months (?) later with Nadyana being pregnant.

And in the novel "Das Ferdoker Pergament" another Mantra'Ke" is mentioned ...

Spoiler

Yes, a mighty warrior who got heavily wounded and was put into some kind of sleep to recover. He got awakened and ultimately killed at the end of the novel. I don't recall his name, but he seems to have no further connection to any TDE-events, as far as I know.

In Drakensang there are few weapons labeled as Meadowian (Meadow/Wiesen?)? Is there something special about this country or the weapons? I didnt see any.

The area of Weiden could have been meant.

This could most likely be a translation error : The word "Weide" means both "meadow" and "willow", the tree. The tree which is called Willow in the English language is actually called "Weide" in the German language.

And Weiden is a ... duchy or dukedom (word translated via dict.leo.org). It is considered as (among a few other areas) THE starting area for new aventurian heroes.
Weiden is a duchy with a (still) strong chivalrous culture.

As Alrik mentioned, it's just a regional thing. Weiden is something of a rather old-fascioned knight-country, thus the weapons from there have some air of great quality, but also out-of-date-ness about them. If the Wiki is correct, in English they actually used the term "Meadows" for Weiden, so there's nothing wrong with the translation.

Do trolls have some kind of quick regeneration as trolls in Faerun/AD&D?

No, no, not at all. Forget everything you know about (A)D&D trolls when you deal with Aventurian trolls ! There is (as far as I know) no similarity between both at all - except the name !
The trolls we see within the games are a kind of degenerated remains of a once great culture ... Thousands of years ago ... Elsewhere, aventurian Trolls might still have a strong culture, but both Drakensang games just don't portrait them as such.

Trolls are different everywhere. It's interesting if you just look at the different creatures you might think of if you are talking about "trolls" in Earth-terms. The range is from small little faery-like creatures up to big giants that can turn to stone in a photochemical reaction (i.e. being put into sunlight). Thus, and considering that each author tries to seperate "his" fantasy universe from others, it is no wonder, that trolls are rather different in each fantasy world you look at. I think, Aventurian authors somehow developed a kind of disliking of simple-minded stupid monsters. Thus, they tried to turn orcs, goblins and all the other humanoid races into primitive but believable cultures of their own. And thus, the Trolls in Aventuria have become a really ancient race. They got a very subtle yet powerful kind of magic which might know effects similar to common healing magic, but otherwise, they are as vulnerable as any mortal being (once you have pierced through their thick skin ).

Spoiler

What becomes of the far north of Aventuria wth her missing ? Will Glorana's realms extend towards the north further on ?

Spoiler

Actually, this will be told in the "Schattenlande"-book, I think. But I think, Pardona's dark elves and frost dragons might be a holding their ground in the north even without their leader. And Pardona isn't ultimately dead, which even annoys me more than the way of finishing her of - either you want to keep her as the big evil witch of the north or you just get rid of her once and for all, but what is said at the end of the dragons' chronicles about her state (she will regain strength and someday return again) is just really stupid, I think. Glorana seems to have some different plans right now, withdrawing to the northern parts of her realm but just so she can hunt down the ones who try to reclaim the land from her. Yet, until "Schattenlande" will be released, I haven't got any good information on the events up there.

Does Prenn's Grove (in Tallon) mean something? Was Prenn someone from history or what?

Actually, I don't know. It must mean something, but I don't know what.

I wonder if Draconites know the story about Teclador and Liscom of Fasar who defeated him. Is it known tale or mostly only heroes who helped Teclador know it.

Good question. I think the Draconites should be aware of the events. And the story of how Liscom was defeated in the Gor is not really a secret but some kind of legend you might hear as an Aventurian fairy-tale. I guess, as an Old Dragon really acting is person would (ironically) sound far too fantastic to an Aventurian audition, I imagine that in the Aventurian storyteller's version of the story, they might tell of Teclador's mighty servant Bukhar who joined a group of heroes to defeat Liscom. But nevertheless, the Draconites might even be aware of the full story.

Similar topic - did dwarves know that Famerlor defeated Pyrdacor in 2nd Dragon War and probably killed him by own hands (claws)? I'm interested if nation of dragon-haters share some respect for Famerlor who ended the war? Or do dwarves tell this myth differently, for example that Pyrdacor was defeated by their beloved god Ingerimm (Angrosch) or some big minion of Ingerimm?

Another very good questions. I guess that the dwarves must know many more stories about the Dragon Wars than humans do. So, they should know of Famerlor fighting against Pyrdacor. But either they see it as one enemy fighting another one or they know that Famerlor is no longer present in the Third Sphere and thus it wouldn't change their attitude towards all the dragons and reptiles in the Third Sphere having to be killed for good.

So Famerlor may be the only one dragon who is revered by dwarves as good one.

I'm not so sure about that. He might be the enemy's enemy, but does that make him a friend? Anyway, I guess the dwarves might prefer Famerlor dwelling in Alveran than living in the Third Sphere.

I am afraid that lore is often badly represented in Drakensang series, especially in english version of the first game. Many important details from lore are omitted or just badly interpretted.

Actually - talking about the non-translated German version - I like the way Aventurian lore and legend is woven into the games. There are so many different interpretations and the whole stories are so complex that it is impossible to put it into a computer game without creating contradictions and really losing manay pieces of information by summarizing things. Yet, the flavour seems always right to me and I had a lot of fun being reminded of different aspects of Aventurian history and mythology while playing the gmaes. There were many things I knew to be not quite correct but as they are always told by Aventurian people, it doesn't seem wrong that they are making mistakes or interpret various things differently than I did.

Phileasson's Secret actually contains a fair amount of interesting Elven lore.

Actually, Radon Labs really fucked up with the gameplay of the expansion, just trying to finish it somehow as the studio was already bankrupt and bought by Bigpoint who rather wanted them to create a hack'n'slay-browser-game than finishing the "real" Drakensang in a worthy way. But the links to the "Phileasson Saga" and the lore woven into it, are really great at many points. You have to know a lot about the Aventurian background, but then you can really enjoy the storyline within the globule and this might compensate for some of the gameplay-flaws. As in the "Phileasson-Saga" of the Pen&Paper-game you can learn a lot about the Elves and their history.

I wonder if the Aventurian Elves still follow this pantheon, or have an entirely different pantheon altogether. The Elves belonging to the Storm Sentinel tribe seemed to worship nature itself, for instance, rather than any gods.

Today's Elves are the descendants of the Light Elves you can see in the Tie'Shianna-globule. They were betrayed by Pardona and experienced that trusting in gods didn't do them any good. Thus, today's Elves no longer belief in worshipping gods they have lost a lot of their culture but exchanged it to a really close bonding to nature and thus you really can say that they are only worshipping nature itself. In some way they got disappointed with the principle of praying to gods and now they accept that they might exist but don't think it makes any sense praying to them. And in fact, they are not really personifying the principles mentioned, thus clearly not treating them as you would expect to do with a god. Some people have quite correctly pointed out parallels between them and native American people, but you won't find a Manitou for the Aventurian Elves.

And BTW - afaik its not nurti and zerza. Its "Zerzal" (decay) and "Nurdra" (grow). In first Drakensang Gwendala use these words too.

Actually, in German it should be "Nurti" and "Zerzal". Why they made "Nurdra" out of it, I don't know. But this could be as much of a translation issue as a different spelling with Elves and Humans talking about Elves.

These cities contain the elemental keys; but since Elves are supposed to have lost dominion over the elemental keys to the humans, I wonder what happened to these keys... are they still in the Elven cities? Are these Elven cities still populated?

Spoiler

The elemental keys may be a plotline that will not continue as its creator (Hadmar von Wieser) has left the circle of Aventurian authors several years ago. The prophecy of Los' bird of light told humans to look for the keys and resemble them in their hands to be the dominating race in the Twelfth Age of Dere. There is a lot of mythological things about it, at the moment we are experiencing the "Karmakorthäon", a time between the Eleventh and the Twelfth Age and no one knows, how long this might last. Maybe after the humans have gathered the six elemental keys, the new age may dawn, but maybe it will take them even far into the Twelfth Age until they can finish this task. There was an expedition set out to look for the keys and a novel described them setting of to Myranor to find the elemental key of Earth. Ironically, an elf being part of this expedition (Tenobaal, you might know his famous arrows from the Drakensang-games) seems to have secured the key right now, but where he is and what he will do with the key, I cannot tell. The main idea of the expedition and their tales was dropped after von Wieser left Aventuria and during the Dragons' Chronicles the remaining members of the expedition could return to Aventuria. To me, this seemed like some kind of final closure to the elemental-key-project for the TDE-authors.

[Farflame]

No idea, I don't have this book.
You could, however, ask here :
http://ulisses-forum.de/showthread.php? ... post816651

Thanks. I will write there.
I wonder how would they respond to our discussion about history of all Ancient/Old Dragons, "adult dragon-business", birth of Shafir's son etc.

Yes, it took me quite a bit longer to post again here, mostly because I was quite busy planning my holiday-trip to Iceland next week. But now, be prepared for another monster-post...

Your post is really monstrosity. So if you ask for it I go for monster-post too...
BTW Have a nice holiday on Iceland.


-----------

On writing fan-fiction: I somehow think that there is pretty much fan-fiction in TDE, as most of the official material and especially the novels are "just" fan-fiction. Yet I understand your reasons for not trying to write for TDE very well, Alrik. I also would rather write a novel in my own universe than in Aventuria. Maybe some day this project might even see the light of day, at the moment there are just some unpublishable fragments of it...

What is so bad about writing to TDE? Fans dont like fan fiction much? Did they like mostly only work of oficial TDE creators which is considered as canon?

While reading the fourth volume of the campaign I discovered something really interesting (which kind of annoyed me as it didn't fit at all into the world of TDE).

Spoiler

At the end of the campaign, the heroes want to retrieve something rather special for the upcoming battle of dragons at the finale of the campaign. And it has to be them to get it, because the dragons themselves are to big to enter a temple. This is said to have been a kind of security mechanism of Pyrdacor so that only the Old Dragons could get the thing, as they are the only ones to be able to transform themselves into a human shape. Actually I don't think that this fits into the image of dragons at all. Even Mantra'kim can use human shape, Malgorra can, but not the big dragons, some of whom are real experts in transformation magic? Really, you can't be serious about that!

What we learn from this is at least that the question of human-to-dragon-sex we discussed above is suddenly becoming far more interesting. If Shafir is not able to turn himself into a human shape, how can he and Aldare have a son and why is he a human?

No. I think its nonsense. Its clearly lame excuse to solve problem in the story - how to put dragons away and let only heroes go inside. It cant be security mechanism because it wouldnt work at all. Many dragons would easily sent inside their servants or would charm some people by magic to do it. It just doesnt make sense.
Dragons who are experts in transformation magic had to be able transform. If Mantrakim are able to, why not other dragons? IMHO this idea will disappoint many players and will be discarded or corrected sooner or later.

Malgorra has a sister?

Yep, she is caleld Yalstene and plays some important role in the "Erben des Zorns"-adventure module. I think, at the end she is defeated and retreats herself to Zze'Tha. So I guess at the time of "Drakensang" she is still living there, licking her wounds. Yet, the real context was somehow more complex and I don't remember it in detail at the moment. I think, Yalstene and Malgorra are not the best friends, so to speak, and Malgorra at some point disguised herself as Yalstene and took over the control of the dragons' cults in her name. But I might also mix things up a bit here.

It seems plausible. If Yalstene revered Pyrdacor as the biggest dragon god while Malgora served the other big dragon (we all know which one), Malgorra had to put Yalstene away to take over leadership and use cultists for own purposes.

BTW Malgorra has very similar name to Malgorrzáta, famous Riesenlindwurm (giant dragon). Its probably intentional, but I dont know if she knew him.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/index.php/Unau-Wurm

Spoiler

If I remember it correctly, in the final battle Malgorra transformed into dragon with one big head and two small heads shaped as arms (not sure now if that were arms or heads). It may indicate her bond to Malgorrzáta, because Riesenlindwurms has also 3 heads.

Spoiler

No, for some reasons the authors didn't want to put all the big dragons there, thus creating some kind of almighty-magical-creature-overkill and revealing also some secrets still left unrevealed (the true nature of Nosulgor for example). There is a six-headed dragon created by the Old Dragons as a "essence nexus" that in fact has the ability to summon all descendants of the six Old Dragons at Zze Tha for a meeting. Yet, in the campaign only two of his heads are awakened and thus only the descendants of Pyrdacor and Fuldigor are summoned.

Spoiler

- Why the Old dragons created this "essence nexus"? Why to summon all descendants?
- Is there some hint that Nosulgor is not Nosulgor? Could he be some other dragon?

Some big dragons (e.g. Apep) use smaller dragons as a kind of entourage, messengers and spies, though, but I don't think they would want them to live in their cave permanently.

Of course, I wouldnt want them in my home either.

Afaik there are also many dragons in Rashtul's Wall mountains. Do we know some strongest boss between dragons there (like Apep in Dragon Stones)? Maybe Ysolphur? He is considered the strongest Purple Wurm in Aventuria (interesting note - Japhgur from Drakensang is his grandson).

Dragon cultists - There are more groups of dragon cultists and most of them worship Pyrdacor. I wonder if they cooperate. It shouldnt be problem for Malgorra and her Mantra'kim to get more groups together (she probably did it but I doubt all dragon cultists fough for her).

In fact, Malgorra got many of them to work for her independently. So they all fought on her side without really knowing of each other. As most of them have really weird and mixed-up, but also very strong beliefs, I guess they would fight each other at least as hard as Catholics and Protestants did in the seventeenth century (Thirty Years' War, etc.), though with less resources. Thus, Malgorra decided to control them in secret and not uniting them officially.

...And she also used her Mantrakim brothers/sisters like Seldrakon to do the job in disguise.

Trolls are different everywhere. It's interesting if you just look at the different creatures you might think of if you are talking about "trolls" in Earth-terms. The range is from small little faery-like creatures up to big giants that can turn to stone in a photochemical reaction (i.e. being put into sunlight). Thus, and considering that each author tries to seperate "his" fantasy universe from others, it is no wonder, that trolls are rather different in each fantasy world you look at. I think, Aventurian authors somehow developed a kind of disliking of simple-minded stupid monsters. Thus, they tried to turn orcs, goblins and all the other humanoid races into primitive but believable cultures of their own. And thus, the Trolls in Aventuria have become a really ancient race. They got a very subtle yet powerful kind of magic which might know effects similar to common healing magic, but otherwise, they are as vulnerable as any mortal being (once you have pierced through their thick skin ).

I know that trolls had in their era rather advanced civilisation. If I remember it correctly they were also deceived by Nameless One (or by some big priesnt who was servant of Nameless) and fought for him - and so they were punished by other gods.

The paradox is that in Drakensang Radon Labs presented the trolls as big dull morons. The golden age of trolls is gone, of course, but I had feeling that writers went again the "simple way" and presented trolls little too much as brute simpletons.
For example it would be IMHO more interesting scenario of that Ferdok quest if the trolls would in fact try to befool Tradan the innkeeper. It could be their simple and usual game to play complete simpletons so people let them go away without paying for food and drink - just to finally get rid of them. It doesnt mean that they are extraordinary intelligent or social beings. It would just prove that they can think and be smart if they talk to average or stupid human commoners.

Similar topic - did dwarves know that Famerlor defeated Pyrdacor in 2nd Dragon War and probably killed him by own hands (claws)? I'm interested if nation of dragon-haters share some respect for Famerlor who ended the war? Or do dwarves tell this myth differently, for example that Pyrdacor was defeated by their beloved god Ingerimm (Angrosch) or some big minion of Ingerimm?

Another very good questions. I guess that the dwarves must know many more stories about the Dragon Wars than humans do. So, they should know of Famerlor fighting against Pyrdacor. But either they see it as one enemy fighting another one or they know that Famerlor is no longer present in the Third Sphere and thus it wouldn't change their attitude towards all the dragons and reptiles in the Third Sphere having to be killed for good.

Yes, its plausible. I dont think anything would change their attitude towards dragons and reptiles builded for centuries. But it opens one question - if they think that Famerlor was also enemy of mortals and defeated Pyrdacor, why he didnt take Pyrdacor's land, servants and throne? A spark of uncommon mercy of big bad dragon?

------

Why dwarven king Ordamon stole the crown of Pyrdacor? Was it simple theft or did he have some special reason? His action began or at least incite long-time war and hatred between Pyrdacor and dwarves.

[Alrik Fassbauer]

BTW Malgorra has very similar name to Malgorrzáta, famous Riesenlindwurm (giant dragon). Its probably intentional, but I dont know if she knew him.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/index.php/Unau-Wurm

It could well be that this is just an incarnation of her.

Why dwarven king Ordamon stole the crown of Pyrdacor? Was it simple theft or did he have some special reason? His action began or at least incite long-time war and hatred between Pyrdacor and dwarves.

I think I remember that the female Dwarf he wanted to marry wanted this crown - out of greed.
I think she was cursed after that, or killed.

[Xeledon]

What is so bad about writing to TDE? Fans dont like fan fiction much? Did they like mostly only work of oficial TDE creators which is considered as canon?

From a reader's point of view, among the official TDE-novels there are some really good ones, a lot of mediocre stuff and too much of rather bad ones. The authors are not always deeply rooted within the TDE-background and thus tend to create contradictions to the "official Aventuria". And as most fans have problems in understanding all the details within the world, they get really annoyed when something even differs completely from the things being told in the rulebooks. In general, the novels are considered "non-canonic" from the publisher's point of view. Therefore, most of the fans tend to distrust a novel in the first place and have to be convinced by really good quality.
From an authors point of view, if you want to write a novel that is true to "the real Aventuria", you have a lot of things to consider as the whole background is described quite densely in more than 25 years of publication history. So in my oppinion, writing a TDE-novel you will always reach a point, where you have to make compromises and either ignore some setting of the world (for which many fans will hate you) or you won't be able to move the story in just the direction that you wanted to. Thus, writing a novel, I would not use the TDE universe but create my own world, just because I can make my own rules and don't have to follow a quite tightly wrapped net of many other people's writings.

While reading the fourth volume of the campaign I discovered something really interesting (which kind of annoyed me as it didn't fit at all into the world of TDE).

Spoiler

At the end of the campaign, the heroes want to retrieve something rather special for the upcoming battle of dragons at the finale of the campaign. And it has to be them to get it, because the dragons themselves are to big to enter a temple. This is said to have been a kind of security mechanism of Pyrdacor so that only the Old Dragons could get the thing, as they are the only ones to be able to transform themselves into a human shape. Actually I don't think that this fits into the image of dragons at all. Even Mantra'kim can use human shape, Malgorra can, but not the big dragons, some of whom are real experts in transformation magic? Really, you can't be serious about that!

What we learn from this is at least that the question of human-to-dragon-sex we discussed above is suddenly becoming far more interesting. If Shafir is not able to turn himself into a human shape, how can he and Aldare have a son and why is he a human?

No. I think its nonsense. Its clearly lame excuse to solve problem in the story - how to put dragons away and let only heroes go inside. It cant be security mechanism because it wouldnt work at all. Many dragons would easily sent inside their servants or would charm some people by magic to do it. It just doesnt make sense.
Dragons who are experts in transformation magic had to be able transform. If Mantrakim are able to, why not other dragons? IMHO this idea will disappoint many players and will be discarded or corrected sooner or later.

Spoiler

In fact, the mechanism works as the dragons' servants cannot get the thing needed out of the temple if they do not bear the essence of an Old Dragon within themselves. When the heroes visited Fuldigor, they were touched by his essence and therfore are able to get the thing.

Yet, I would totally agree with you, that it is simply nonsense and a rather lame way of solving a problem in the plot. In MY universe, huge dragons would be able to shapeshift into human beings if they wanted, although they usually wouldn't like being limited by using such a weak body.

It seems plausible. If Yalstene revered Pyrdacor as the biggest dragon god while Malgora served the other big dragon (we all know which one), Malgorra had to put Yalstene away to take over leadership and use cultists for own purposes.

Yes, that is pretty much what happened.

BTW Malgorra has very similar name to Malgorrzáta, famous Riesenlindwurm (giant dragon). Its probably intentional, but I dont know if she knew him.
http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/index.php/Unau-Wurm

Spoiler

If I remember it correctly, in the final battle Malgorra transformed into dragon with one big head and two small heads shaped as arms (not sure now if that were arms or heads). It may indicate her bond to Malgorrzáta, because Riesenlindwurms has also 3 heads.

I think, it had been three heads to Malgorra, so it could be that there is some relation between Malgorra and Malgorrzáta. It would even be possible, that Malgorra WAS Malgorrzáta and either returned in a different shape later on or the "Unau-Wurm" had never been a real Riesenlindwurm and his description got somehow changed by re-telling his legend throughout all the years.

Spoiler

- Why the Old dragons created this "essence nexus"? Why to summon all descendants?
- Is there some hint that Nosulgor is not Nosulgor? Could he be some other dragon?

Spoiler

I guess the "essence nexus" was created just to have a possibility of gathering all dragons in Zze'Tha if they had to make important decisions, like some kind of "parliamentary meeting" or something like that. Thus, the "essence nexus" would have been a kind of herold to the Old Dragons.
I don't think that there has been anything said about the true nature of Nosulgor so far. Since he has lost the first Dark Eye, he appears to be blind and hasn't be seen for thousands of years. Thus, his existence itself is kind of a mystery today.

Afaik there are also many dragons in Rashtul's Wall mountains. Do we know some strongest boss between dragons there (like Apep in Dragon Stones)? Maybe Ysolphur? He is considered the strongest Purple Wurm in Aventuria (interesting note - Japhgur from Drakensang is his grandson).

I think, Ysolphur is kind of the big boss of Rashtul's Wall. If I'm not mixing him up with someone else, he and his children also play an important part in the last two volumes of the "Dragons' Chronicles".

I know that trolls had in their era rather advanced civilisation. If I remember it correctly they were also deceived by Nameless One (or by some big priesnt who was servant of Nameless) and fought for him - and so they were punished by other gods.

The priest you mentioned is the first "arch-sinner" that the church of Praios knows, actually. His name (Kerbhold, I think) clearly indicates, that he is a troll and he was banished with a whole city into the limbus. Yet, it wasn't the punishment of the gods to swipe away all of their civilization. The trolls' problem was mainly that they just didn't actively fight their fate and let their civilization fall into decline around them, resigning into losing their status as the most important race of their age. Yet, this also preserved many elements of their culture that might otherwise have been destroyed in fighting the younger races. So what I really like about Aventurian trolls is that I am never certain whether I should look at them as being just some degenerated shadow of their former self or having preserved the ancient dignity of their culture deep within their hidden mountain fortresses. I guess it is both at the same time.

The paradox is that in Drakensang Radon Labs presented the trolls as big dull morons. The golden age of trolls is gone, of course, but I had feeling that writers went again the "simple way" and presented trolls little too much as brute simpletons.
For example it would be IMHO more interesting scenario of that Ferdok quest if the trolls would in fact try to befool Tradan the innkeeper. It could be their simple and usual game to play complete simpletons so people let them go away without paying for food and drink - just to finally get rid of them. It doesnt mean that they are extraordinary intelligent or social beings. It would just prove that they can think and be smart if they talk to average or stupid human commoners.

Aventurian trolls are always difficult. At first, they were created just as some stupid monsters you could slay. But as with the orcs, at some point an author decided that they needed a culture and some purpose instead of just waiting under some bridge for a hero to slay them. Thus, the whole history of the trolls was created quite lately, but the picture of the slightly childish and dumb big creature that just loves anything sweet remained. And it is only the latter side of the trolls that the Drakensang-games portray and they are mainly being used as some kind of comedy element.

Yes, its plausible. I dont think anything would change their attitude towards dragons and reptiles builded for centuries. But it opens one question - if they think that Famerlor was also enemy of mortals and defeated Pyrdacor, why he didnt take Pyrdacor's land, servants and throne? A spark of uncommon mercy of big bad dragon?

The whole thing about the fight between Pyrdacor and Famerlor was that Famerlor was allowed to become one of the High Dragons living in Alveran and Pyrdacor wasn't, although he considered himself having deserved it. So when Famerlor showed in battle where his and Pyrdacor's places were, he could return to his dwelling in the Fifth Sphere and let the mortal beings of the Third Sphere fight their stupid wars without him. He was just interested in getting rid of the danger of Pyrdacor fighting his way into his place in Alveran.

Why dwarven king Ordamon stole the crown of Pyrdacor? Was it simple theft or did he have some special reason? His action began or at least incite long-time war and hatred between Pyrdacor and dwarves.

I think I remember that the female Dwarf he wanted to marry wanted this crown - out of greed.
I think she was cursed after that, or killed.

I think you are mixing things up a bit here, Alrik. It was Calaman who stole Ordamon's crown out of Pyrdacors treasury, thus breaking the peace contract between dwarves and dragons. He did it as a quest initiated by the beautiful dwarven-maid Aghira, in order to be allowed to marry her. His tribe thought of it as a brave thing whereas the other dwarves banished him from Xorlosch. Thus, the whole tribe followed Calaman into the mountains near Beilunk, where they became the "Brilliantzwerge" (English anyone? "brilliant dwarves" would be wrong in More than one way... ). These events triggered war among the dwarven tribes. Aghira's brothers killed the highpriest of Angrosch and Aghira herself was turned into a statue burning for all eternity, while some other dwarven tribes left Xorlosch as well.
Yet, all this happened a long time after Ordamon caused the war with the dragons in the first place. At his time, the dwarves were hidden from the world and the dragons ruling it. By trying to steal the crown of Pyrdacor, Ordamon drew his attention towards the dwarves. I guess, his reason for trying to steal something out of Pyrdacor's treasury was partly greed, partly the will to prove himself as being a really tough guy and partly the hope to weaken Pyrdacor and his dragons.

[Farflame]

So in my oppinion, writing a TDE-novel you will always reach a point, where you have to make compromises and either ignore some setting of the world (for which many fans will hate you) or you won't be able to move the story in just the direction that you wanted to.

Of course with such a monstrous lore... But you can always try to write novel in land and time which is not explored too much. Also its easier to write in present time (1033+ BF), because you can add new NPCs there, let few of the oldies die and make some new situation etc. Its not ideal, but I would appreciate good novel - even if I know there are some elements not true to lore - over correct crap. Important is fact WHICH elements are not true to lore. For example if author forgot about some NPC living in the setting of the story you can accept it easily. Worse is if author makes big mistake for example in life of the king, forgot some important event etc.

I think, Ysolphur is kind of the big boss of Rashtul's Wall. If I'm not mixing him up with someone else, he and his children also play an important part in the last two volumes of the "Dragons' Chronicles".

Could you tell us more about his children and their actions in "Dragons' Chronicles"?

The priest you mentioned is the first "arch-sinner" that the church of Praios knows, actually. His name (Kerbhold, I think) clearly indicates, that he is a troll and he was banished with a whole city into the limbus. Yet, it wasn't the punishment of the gods to swipe away all of their civilization. The trolls' problem was mainly that they just didn't actively fight their fate and let their civilization fall into decline around them, resigning into losing their status as the most important race of their age. Yet, this also preserved many elements of their culture that might otherwise have been destroyed in fighting the younger races. So what I really like about Aventurian trolls is that I am never certain whether I should look at them as being just some degenerated shadow of their former self or having preserved the ancient dignity of their culture deep within their hidden mountain fortresses. I guess it is both at the same time.

What does it mean "they didn't actively fight their fate"? Did they decline because of some catastrophe which they were unable to stop, or they just quarrel too much until their civilisation broke or something?

Yes, its plausible. I dont think anything would change their attitude towards dragons and reptiles builded for centuries. But it opens one question - if they think that Famerlor was also enemy of mortals and defeated Pyrdacor, why he didnt take Pyrdacor's land, servants and throne? A spark of uncommon mercy of big bad dragon?

The whole thing about the fight between Pyrdacor and Famerlor was that Famerlor was allowed to become one of the High Dragons living in Alveran and Pyrdacor wasn't, although he considered himself having deserved it. So when Famerlor showed in battle where his and Pyrdacor's places were, he could return to his dwelling in the Fifth Sphere and let the mortal beings of the Third Sphere fight their stupid wars without him. He was just interested in getting rid of the danger of Pyrdacor fighting his way into his place in Alveran.

You misunderstood me. I know about Famerlor vs Pyrdacor was, I tried to question dwarven way of thinking about this event. If they believe that Famerlor is also "big evil dragon like Pyrdacor" how they explain that Famerlor didnt take Pyrdacors throne, land and servants? From dwarven point of view it seems logical step for evil dragon of Famerlors/Pyrdacors level. Either they dont have proper explanation for this Famerlors behavior (aside from babbles), or they approve that some Ancient Dragons can accept the rules and dont act greedily without limits - dont try to have greater power than they already have. In other words (from the dwarven point of view) - "It seems that this evil Famerlor isnt as evil as ordinary dragon. He has at least some quality that can be respected, despite the fact he is our enemy."

It was Calaman who stole Ordamon's crown out of Pyrdacors treasury, thus breaking the peace contract between dwarves and dragons. He did it as a quest initiated by the beautiful dwarven-maid Aghira, in order to be allowed to marry her. His tribe thought of it as a brave thing whereas the other dwarves banished him from Xorlosch. Thus, the whole tribe followed Calaman into the mountains near Beilunk, where they became the "Brilliantzwerge" (English anyone? "brilliant dwarves" would be wrong in More than one way... ). These events triggered war among the dwarven tribes. Aghira's brothers killed the highpriest of Angrosch and Aghira herself was turned into a statue burning for all eternity, while some other dwarven tribes left Xorlosch as well.
Yet, all this happened a long time after Ordamon caused the war with the dragons in the first place. At his time, the dwarves were hidden from the world and the dragons ruling it. By trying to steal the crown of Pyrdacor, Ordamon drew his attention towards the dwarves. I guess, his reason for trying to steal something out of Pyrdacor's treasury was partly greed, partly the will to prove himself as being a really tough guy and partly the hope to weaken Pyrdacor and his dragons.

Is known more details about Ordamors story? I wonder how this dwarf could steal such a big treasure guarded by Pyrdacors servants.



-----------

What are main differencies between dwarf tribes from mountains? Aside from a little visual variety (different beards, clothes, weapon design) or main focus of the society (some are better fighters, some miners, craftsmen...). They share the same god(s), but are there some bigger differencies in society or mythology?

----------
In Orkland are there lost some known artefacts? Its very wild land. I remember from Star Trail RPG that there should be some hidden orkish fortress guarding famous axe Star Trail, but is it only a myth? Hyggelik the Great tried to find it and get lost.

[virumor]

I've been looking into development of The Dark Eye: Demonicon a bit lately, and according to their twitter a certain person named "Lucardus of Kémet" will be in the game.

Is this anyone significant in the lore? I searched on the wiki and there is no entry for this person.

If the lore is decent in the game, I might pick it up... I dislike a preset character (this seemed to be different, judging from the earliest game screenshots), but it takes place in the Shadowlands which could make it very interesting.

[Farflame]

Lucardus is significant person. He is member of the Necromancer's concil, ex-rulers of Warunk. The city was liberated in 1032, so he is directly connected to the setting of the game - and he must be very angry because of losing the city. In the past he was Rhazzazor's commander and leader of Golgarites so probably tough guy, not even a bit of nice guy.
See here - http://www.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Luca ... K%C3%A9met

But frankly, I dont have high hopes for Demonicon. I dont say the game will be bad. But I'm little tired of the ARPG formula. It seems basically like hack and slash clone with undead which is IMHO sooner or later boring, if the game doesnt have many other elements, bigger and interesting story, interesting NPCs etc. - like Divinity DKS have for example. Maybe we can expect little bit of interesting lore, some nice graphics, but Im afraid of straightforward average story "one man to beat them all", tons of action, less talking, PR-dark world maked as PR-dark world (in other words not intricate enough, not lore-friendly enough, mostly standard "teenage darkness") - their pictures of Warunk didnt convince me. Hopefully the story will be decent, but will it be enough?

-------
BTW I visit Demonicon forums too, you can see my posts in ENG board of Demonicon. You are welcome, virumor (of course Alrik, Xeledon, Amosh and others too). I need someone to join discussion there.
Unforunately Kalypso team dont asnwer much (unlike for example Larian guys who are more active on forums).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

The Kalypso booth showed only a "combat demo" of the game.
They told me it will be more than just combat.

[virumor]

From early game screenshots and concept art it seemed that at least one could play with different characters, like female rogue, female Thorwalian fighter, Tulamidian wizard, even Elven ranger. I'm not really interested in the current male warrior (warriors are imo the most boring class to play in a RPG).

Then again, I believe the developer changed...

Anyway, I'm starved for a new game using the TDE setting, and it seems that Demonicon is at least trying to be faithful to the setting. It's no Drakensang 3, but sadly it will probably be the closest we'll get for a very long time... I wish Larian would do something with the setting.

[Farflame]

Unfortunately, this idea was discarded. You play predefined character in Demonicon.

------
If you are hungry for some TDE game, maybe the better choice would be adventure game TDE: Satinav's Chain. The story sounds kind of promising. The graphic's style and quality is almost brilliant. See this screen for example (it was probably shown at GamesCom):
http://www.volny.cz/farflame/hadanka-obr7.jpg

Its a little worse quality, but still great. And there are more of it.
The game would be probably delight for Alrik, it seems lighthearted and magical, something made for him "in the world of doomy grimness and pervasive darkness"...
But maybe the story will be balanced between lighter side and more serious/dangerous/mature side (it will also take place in orcish lands near Andergast).

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I had already spoken with the makers of Satinavs Chains at the last RPC.

I had talked about my ... "distaste" of "gloomyness" and so on - and the person whom I talked to at least seemed to respect my view.

He said to me that parts will be "lighter" than what had been published as screenshots so far.
I don't remember anymore, however, whether he meant the story (I lean over to this) or the graphics ...
The person also said that the area is just known for being and looking a little bit grim : Nostria & Andergast ...
These are two tiny ... states ? which are in continuous cinflict with one another ... It's a little bit like a love-hate relationship.

Apart from that, I'm waiting for the RatCon. There has been a mysterious hint that there might be revealed something ... I have no idea what it might be ...

And then, there's of course the iThing strategy game "Under The Coppermoon", which ties in quite nicely with the current time line of Aventuria - the plans of a certain Ork ...
I have no idea whether this game will be ported to other platforms and into the English language as well ...

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Regarding "Satinav's Chains" : http://videos.pcgames.de/video/4001/Sat ... escom-2011
It's mostly an interview, but from 3:00 on you can see a little bit of its action (the first "moving pictures" of the game I know of).