Grief

[SirVincealot]

@ Grunstein:

I see where you're coming from. Thanks for the clarification.

SirV

[Roban Grünstein]

With pleasure!

[Feylamia]

To anyone using the word "realistic" anywhere within the same universe as a video game: you've been in the basement too long and need to go outside. Test out some reality. Take it slow, say: one hour at a time. I promise, it won't kill you. Probably. :grin

I'm aware that using the thought-terminating cliché "you don't have a real life" is common in internet discussions and usually used to indicate that someone isn't actually interested in a discussion but really more in trolling, so I'll take that hint.

No, he is right.

Make that "she". And yes, that's exactly my point. I'm pretty sure any TDE PnP player will laugh at the insane amoung of magic items you find in Drakensang.
People are used to having god-like characters, but TDE has never been about that. It's been about the journey of the clumsy boy from Gareth who couldn't get any spells right and his progression to a decent magician. You need to think of TDE games as more of a Bildungsroman.

[Swordscythe]

To the OP who was having trouble opening locks, I saw that the shaky hands was mentioned (never open locks with shaky hands), but also, never just "Open" locks. When you just click on a locked chest or door, you will try to open it without a tool, which will automatically give you a -10 penalty. Which means you're basically trying to open locks with your lockpicking skill -10. Of course it'll be hard like that. If you got a lockpick knife, you can just right click and use the lockpick icon. If you got disposables (hairpins or lockpicks) you actually need to put your disposable in your hotbar, click on the disposable (so it turns green) in your hotbar, then click on the chest. If you're wondering if you're doing it right, just open the console and you can read if you're getting a penalty, or if it was just bad luck on your roll. Be advised that if you have a char with bad dex or int or some other attribute you need for a skill, it will be a lot harder to achieve success.

To everything else; I actually disagree with just about anything here.

I found Gwendala, being a spellcaster AND an archer to boot, extremely useful as a healer and caster, and on top of that, she did a whole lotta damage with a longbow. Yeah it's annoying when you go into the rat hole early and they swarm your casters, but that only makes you think about your party. Melee is definitely not overpowered. The only thing I would really call overpowered is shields, because there is really no good reason not to get a shield. The running is normal. You don't expect a character to sprint from here to there all day long, do you? If she has to sustain a perpetual run, then I prefer it to be a jog. Perhaps they could've added a sprint thing that would deplete your endurance or something, but oh well.

This is a game in which you really have to think about what you do with your experience points. The thing I don't like is that when you choose to be an Elven Fighter, for instance, you can't really be as good as any other fighters, because you're stuck with a stupid spear early and you can't use a shield with a spear (even though apparently you can in the pnp game). They should make a patch or something that allows you (in expert mode) to specialize fully into another weapon than the one they pick for you. A sword-wielding Elven Fighter would be much more interesting. And even if you use the savegame editor to set it as high as spears, it doesn't allow you to level it higher as you gain levels. That's annoying.

But specialize, people. If you think Gladys is not much of a lockpick... maybe that's because she really isn't? She's great to have around for her social skills, though. If you wanna have fun, make a burglar, max lockpicking early on and open everything without ever using a silly lockpick or hairpin in the entire game. Furthermore, check your friggin' attributes. I remember when I made my burglar, I had him at thirteen strength, twelve constitution and maxed at everything he needed before I left Avestrue. He was a much better fighter than my elven fighter, because I get smarter everytime I restart.

And yeah, if you manage to finish the first two quests from Cano, you get some incredible gloves.

It does suck that you can't use collision to protect your casters.. but there are plenty other tactics you can use. i.e. if you train your peeps to use ranged weapons, it will take away from your talent points, but it will come in handy quite a bit. How about that annoying tree not being able to hit you? If you train 'em all to sneak.. same thing. The rat I find pretty easy, actually. If you take him on at lvl 6-7, and worry about the rats (mama rat has awful DPS) I had a lot more trouble with Gamblack and his cronies. Later in the game, when everybody has 20-20 AT-PA, it all gets easier and the loot gets crazy.

All in all, I'd advise you not to bother with barrels and crates at first. Maybe open a chest or two, but not even that will do well. At some point in the game, drops from critters become nice and when that happens, take it all home baby, it's a regular gold mine. what you could do for money is just pickpocket the Ducal Citadel... that's a bit of a goldmine early on.

The most important thing is realizing what to put points in. Get everyone weapon maxed, try to get some willpower for everybody (max for all melee) and screw the nature talents and crafting and stuff (plants and skins are just extra money, which you don't need all that much except to buy skills and crafting, which you're not doing ( ), and traps aren't very good, someone at your residence can get all the crafting skills and craft everything), and everything else, divide equally among your permanent companions, with everyone taking on the skills most interesting for their attributes and bonuses. (i.e. don't give amazons or elves social skills, if you got a rogue, he needs like half those points to be more efficient than you), don't elevate attributes over the necessary requirements for your needed combat skills (unless you really have nothing else left to invest them in), invest in your passive (!) combat skills asap (Endurance, Shield Fighting, Armor Use for all your melee chars), realize that high encumbrance may kill your damage (check your weapon), when you level your weapon, put all your points into AT (no weapon PA) (till you hit 20 ofc), Gwendala or a ranged caster with Master Marksmanship can kill a target before the fight even begins. Etc. etc. There'll always be points of improvement you can make, but knowing what's good and most importantly, how it'll be good, will make the game, perhaps not easy (I dislike games that you can win any battle by just starting to hit things), but a lot easier.

By the way, I just found out that that dwarven trader at Nandor's in Avestrue sells a lockpick knife. So you never need to use those silly hairpins, whoever you are.

[SirVincealot]

I'm aware that using the thought-terminating cliché "you don't have a real life" is common in internet discussions and usually used to indicate that someone isn't actually interested in a discussion but really more in trolling, so I'll take that hint.

I did not make my point clear enough. To wit: one who thinks that any part - any tiny part whatsoever - in any video game ever made reflects the way in which the world we live in actually functions needs to go and bump themselves against it. From so-called "realistic" shooters with insta-health to CRPGs full of magic and Dwarves running around with 99 bars of Kosh steel: none of it has anything to do with reality.

It has nothing to do with "not having a life" and everything with the smelly, hard, cold, contingent and indifferent universe we live in. Games are not about realism anyway, I'm sure I don't understand why peeps praise it so.

I'm talking generally here. You sound like a smart person so there is no need to take it personal - don't just take your dolly and go home!

/end segue

SirV

[SirVincealot]

To the OP who was having trouble opening locks

Followed earlier poster's advice. Fixed. Good advice for newbs coming in late, though.

I found Gwendala, being a spellcaster AND an archer to boot, extremely useful as a healer and caster

If this is in reference to my bitching about the lethargic elven ranger cow, I'm *not* talking about Gwendala. I'm talking about my OWN avatar: I created an Elven Ranger and maxed out every single stat, talent, magic buff I could lay my hands on to help her out and she's still far, far behind my NOT maxed out Forgrimm and Rhulana (especially after her side quest) in terms of usefulness. It's the classic CRPG archer curse - the ONLY game I have ever played where archers kick ass is DIVINE DIVINITY.

Now I happen to AGREE WITH YOU. How about that! I agree that the Elven Ranger is excellent at playing bass to Forgrimm's lead guitar. But that's not what I was looking for when I created her. I don't have the math on hand but you will not convince me otherwise since she also has low ED, which means she only gets to use one talent for every two or three used by anyone else in the party. "So raise her ED!" is not the solution either, since the cost to raise the requisite attributes (three of them: COURAGE, CON, AGI) cuts 1000 point swaths into raising anything else.

The only solution I have found is to brew dozens of ED potions. But you go on saying "screw plant lore" which cuts into Alchemy's usefulness.

If it's not in reference to my bitching, feel free to ignore previous paragraph.

The running is normal. You don't expect a character to sprint from here to there all day long, do you? If she has to sustain a perpetual run, then I prefer it to be a jog. Perhaps they could've added a sprint thing that would deplete your endurance or something, but oh well.

You hit it square on the head: "I prefer" - you and I just happen to "prefer" something different. In any case, you allow that there could be a "sprint" function.

If you think Gladys is not much of a lockpick... maybe that's because she really isn't?

Again: fixed.

She's great to have around for her social skills, though.

I take her everywhere in town, leave her ass on the curb when questing.

He was a much better fighter than my elven fighter, because I get smarter everytime I restart.

Is your point that the game starts getting fun when you restart a dozen times until you "get it right"?

I have extremely limited gaming time and all I ask is some transparency.

Which, to a large extent, I got. DRAKENSANG is *amazing* in its overall granularity. It's the only game I can think of where you can switch characters right inside the looting window.

Something just occurred to me: most of the peeps disagreeing with me here are already familiar with DAS SCHWARZE AUGE - I'm not.

if you train your peeps to use ranged weapons, it will take away from your talent points, but it will come in handy quite a bit. If you train 'em all to sneak.. same thing.

Well, you just admonished us to "specialize people"! Make up your mind

All in all, I'd advise you not to bother with barrels and crates at first. Maybe open a chest or two

I say the opposite. *ALL* of the useful loot in Blood Mountains was in barrels and crates. Trapped and locked chests dropped single objects like pipes - I shit you not.

At some point in the game, drops become nice

It's actually ridiculous. Now that I have all the equipment I'll ever need, Grimtooth castle dropped over 300 Ducats of stuff in my hands - I couldn't even log it all. I'm talking regular drops of super-health potions and dragon blood and Kosh steel.

It's like the game was made by two different teams: the Scrooges made the first 3 chapters, then DTP switched design teams. I'm swimming in money now.

screw the nature talents and crafting and stuff

More bad advice. Crafting is the only way I have found to get the TiikTok bow and the faster Orc Composite bow - none of the mobs ever dropped a ranged weapon better than the standard (i.e. non-Elven) longbow. And my ranger comatose cow needs all the help she can get.

don't elevate attributes over the necessary requirements for your needed combat skills

Thing is, combat talents soak up ED like a drunk at Octoberfest. So I'm forced to up three separate attributes @ 300 points a pop . . . or watch my pregnant elven cow use one talent. S...l...o...w...l...y recharge. Fire another talent. You know what I mean.

Gwendala or a ranged caster with Master Marksmanship can kill a target before the fight even begins.

Video capture or that did not happen. Sorry. Or did you mean killing a dragonfly?

I dislike games that you can win any battle by just starting to hit things.

So say we all. Look to THE WITCHER for a game where you *must* be prepared but if you are, you will prevail rather than bang your head against the monitor in frustration. Or restarting over and over until you make your party "just right."

Again: I *LOVE* the game. I wouldn't be here otherwise (I would have uninstalled it and thrown it out) but there are some big snags along the way, seemingly made to kill my great buzz, and inexplicable in a game otherwise very, very well made. I'm off to Tallon (with party spread around levels 9 and 10) and it's really rockin'! Plus, it's all bloody gorgeous.

So I got my wish after all . . .

SirV

[Feylamia]

To wit: one who thinks that any part - any tiny part whatsoever - in any video game ever made reflects the way in which the world we live in actually functions needs to go and bump themselves against it.

Because in the real world the laws of physics don't apply, people aren't hurt by swords and the languages the characters speak in aren't actually real languages?

Seriously, it's fine, really. I get that you think you're right. No need to waste any more precious bits and bytes saying the same over and over again.

[Roban Grünstein]

He was a much better fighter than my elven fighter, because I get smarter everytime I restart.

Is your point that the game starts getting fun when you restart a dozen times until you "get it right"?

That's a point where Drakensang failed royally: It has no tutorial. It's a good idea to add the two mercenaries to learn about the combat system. But wth do you have to fight 1 vs 2?
At this point I wondered: What where they thinking?! Instead of giving players a good advice and practice in an even 1on1 battle, they put you in there and you stand no chance... You lose, lose and lose - and don't even know why. Instead of explaining the combat system in a dialouge, you just lose, lose, lose.
You have to pick up a party member and get back there. That's really a horrible design.

Something just occurred to me: most of the peeps disagreeing with me here are already familiar with DAS SCHWARZE AUGE - I'm not.

That's because Drakensang is decent at best.
If you know the world and the rule system, you see all the flaws and mistakes. I play TDE for more than 10 years now - and I have never ever seen a single group of 3 amoebias. Not to mention a temple cellar filled with dozents of them. That's the fault of Drakensang:
The TDE rules are focused on roleplaying.
Combat is not the first concern of the ruleset (and poorly balanced anyway). But Drakensang makes it worse with implenting an easy-mode combat system, no brainer skills all along. While I can sit in PnP and think a minute if I try a mighty blow +4 or a feint +4 or a combined blow/feint +2/+2, in Drakensang I hit any button, I can't miss anyway.
Instead of making combat tactical, the devs fill your pokets with uber-items and use uber-monsters or uber-massive-monster-groups to make combat challenging. Instead of using a good spellsystem they add auto-regen in combat. Think about using a spell? Nah.
In PnP, a mage regen 1D6+X AE per night, where X is mostly between 0 and 6, so that's about 7-12 per night. In Drakensang, I wait 12 seconds for that. Imagine how hard it is for an oldschool PnP player to accept this. Everytime, my mages had to think when they used magic. It worked. And now this... Aww...
The idea of having a dozen healing potions in my party is disturbing for me as GM in PnP. My party gets one healing pot. Maybe 2. If it's hardcore kick badass time they might get 1 per person. That's it.

Drakensang is way too epic for the character level. Dragons, Cyclops, magic stuff en mass, Dragon Quest - that's not for a beginner group. Granted, at 15k AP this might be an okay, but you start at 0 and when you hit the swamps, epic-O-meter goes to 100%. But instead of higher start AP they used epiXXX to compensate.
Just to make a comparison: For the biggest TDE campaign (and this one is really epic, "save the world from demi-god" style. (not random evil demigod btw, just demigod), you start with 5000 AP - and usually end with ~20000 AP. At this point, several years have gone by and you have played a dozen chapters, if you play 1 day a week it will probably take you 2-3 years to finish the campaign. The characters have become one of the mightiest mortals in the TDE world. (And thats why they usually don't survive the campaign - if you would continue with 20k AP it's cakewalk. Even swordmasters and grand rulers barely have more than 15k AP...)
Now imagine - 2 or 3 RL years for 15k AP, in Drakensang you get them for a story line that would fit in maybe 2 or 3 chapters of the most epic TDE campaign.
Not to mention that you don't have 300 talents to spend your AP in Drakensang (like in PnP), so you will max your important TAV withing the first 5000 AP...

And the story in Drakensang is horrible imo.
Cliché everywhere, no tension, epicness that doesn't follow the ruleset. Dragonspawns that disguise and teleport at will and want to take over the world... Ah yeah, sure. That's why there is the TDE ruleset - to prevent stupid things like this. Did I mention Cliché?
The Praios priests in the forest. If there is one profession that finds foul magic, it's them. And it turns out that the high priest with them is actually a magical masked dragon spawn? Yeah, sure. Did I mention epic fail and cliché? Bah...

But the biggest flaw is, that neither your race nor your gender nor your profession does make a difference. Really, they might as well have left out all classes and just make a single warrior as playable character. I am an elve, so I expect people to act different. You might remember the "dwarfs don't like elves" thing from other fantasy worlds, same goes PnP TDE. And did you know that Praios priests don't like elves? Like 'foul magic - can't we purge them?'

I can't even pick different dialogue options. Granted, in BG II, many of these options had the same result in the end, but at least, I had a choise. I play an RPG, so where is my roleplay? If I want to read a fixed story, I read a book. Where is the roleplaying here? For me, RPG isn't mindless clicking through dialoges - that what FPS are about... ( )

Okay, sounds all horrible, but let's face it:
There has been no TDE game for a long time - and Drakensang is better than no game. It was low budget and a test run. It succeeded, so I can now expect that they do better. I can forgive about the flaws in Drakensang.
I mean, on the other hand, you can see that they really enjoyed making the game. Just look at all the (rather useless) clothings they added. Style!
Everytime I come home to Ardo's mantion and go the garden, the little kitty will start following me. Meow. Ahhh soooo cute... And they even god character interaction there! Characters speaking with each other! WITH FULL VOICE OVER! Here you can see what Drakensang might have become if they had more time and money.
And the graphics are nice. Finally seeing Ferdok in really nice 3D graphic was awesome. And imo the city was the most beautiful place I have seen in RPGs for a while...

TDE has much more potential than what Drakensang offers. That's why we oldschool players believe it isn't that good.
In fact, Drakensang is barely more than combat + aventurica background, the real roleplaying part is missing.

Yuck, long post

[Cleitanious]

A good bowman can fire 15 arrows per minute with accuracy at a point target at 250 yards.

[Amosh]

A good bowman can fire 15 arrows per minute

That would be two combat rounds per arrow, so what are you complaning about?

[SirVincealot]

You lose, lose and lose - and don't even know why. Instead of explaining the combat system in a dialouge, you just lose, lose, lose.

Yeah. I was pretty discouraged when wild boards ktp'ed me over and over. I started regretting my purchase - not that the game wasn't very advantageously priced . . .

The TDE rules are focused on roleplaying. Combat is not the first concern of the ruleset

I'm not familiar with anything but the name. But if it's anything like Chaosium's CTHULHU rules, I might want to give it a shot - I'm at the age where D&D (for example) simply no longer fit my needs as a *storyteller* first.

Cliché everywhere, no tension, epicness that doesn't follow the ruleset. Dragonspawns that disguise and teleport at will and want to take over the world... Ah yeah, sure. That's why there is the TDE ruleset - to prevent stupid things like this. Did I mention Cliché?

I enjoy it for what it is. It's no worse than most of the stuff on the shelves and oftentimes better. You know, I often hear about the "classic" days of KINGS QUEST and CLOUD OF XEEN and BALDUR'S GATE - well, I was there and the storytelling in those "classics" was just awful. At least DRAK has a quirky sense of humor.

Granted, in BG II, many of these options had the same result in the end, but at least, I had a choise.

I'll have to disagree with you there, bud. If two options lead to the same result, fooling me into thinking there is more to it is dishonest. I prefer no choice to fake choices. But that's just me.

Just look at all the (rather useless) clothings they added. Style!

You contradict yourself a tad here and I like how the contradiction points out a strength of the game: I change my avatar's clothing when going into town, or going into a meeting with the Duke. Not "useless" to me although superfluous since the game doesn't track clothing into the Etiquette test.

And the graphics are nice. Finally seeing Ferdok in really nice 3D graphic was awesome. And imo the city was the most beautiful place I have seen in RPGs for a while...

I don't get tired of it - though they did recycle whole swaths of dungeons. The way light falls across the path on the way to Castle Grimtooth was almost worth the price of admission alone.

In fact, Drakensang is barely more than combat + aventurica background, the real roleplaying part is missing.

I don't feel any videogame was ever different, even the fan darlings FALLOUT 1 and PLANESCAPE. I've DMed too many games to be fooled by any computer code.

I've learned to take Crpgs for what they are and keep in mind that no computer can yet come close to a live DM, for obvious reasons.

Thanks for the post.

SirV

[Cleitanious]

A good bowman can fire 15 arrows per minute

That would be two combat rounds per arrow, so what are you complaning about?

And by what logic do you accuse me of complaining?

[wolfy]

They should add in day night cycles that occur over a rapid timespan.Say 1/2hr of gamplay will have you run from 12 morning to 12 midnight.You can rest only once each night to prevent the fight/rest/fight/rest fiasco that will occur.

Get rid of regeneration of AE,VI and very imoprtantly change the rules of TDE to compensate for this.So have magic users with higher AE to begin to compensate for the multitude of enemies.Make healing potions hard to buy,create but make them more common than in PNP.

[SirVincealot]

@ wolfy:

How would that improve the gaming experience, though?

Not being a jerk or anything: I really am interested to hear how you think this will make the game better rather than simply different.

(I ask because it sounds like disaster to me...)

SirV

[SirVincealot]

I'm in Tallon and for the first time since the Marshes - that's 20+ hours of gaming! - I finally fought some harpies. Great! I thought: I'll finally get my hands of some feathers and make sweet arrows.

Out of six corpses, only one could be looted and it dropped 2 feathers. That's not enough to make so much as ONE arrow.

Are non-lootable corpses one of the "piracy protection" bugs? I'm playing a legit copy, non-cracked, but I've heard of false positives with this game.

Anyone know?

SirV

[Derpas Mata]

No, that's regular. Only one from 3-6 harpies hav feathers. But she respawn after a while!

[SirVincealot]

No, that's regular. Only one from 3-6 harpies hav feathers. But she respawn after a while!

Alright. Thanks. Threw me for a loop because in the Marshes, I collected enough to make on bundle of 10 arrows (which I have saved for a bad day, seeing how hard the components are to get)

Related note: my Elvish cow is getting better! The Orc Composite bow fires quite a bit faster and she's rather deadly when fully buffed. She's still a support unit but now she's at least a glorified support unit. :grin

SirV

[wolfy]

@ wolfy:

How would that improve the gaming experience, though?

Not being a jerk or anything: I really am interested to hear how you think this will make the game better rather than simply different.

(I ask because it sounds like disaster to me...)

SirV

Different in a good way.Walking around with torches at night adds immersion(inside the evil tree,some areas are very dark and youll see how kool torches become).Seeing sunrise or sunset adds immersion.Resting with an option to right click on ground and the characters will pitch tent and make fire adds immersion(add in tiredness where rest becomes mandatory).....with possibility to be ambushed at disadvantage for certain amount of rounds.I also think the world map would be kooler if when traveling to a new destination you see a light to dark cycle signifying days spent traveling.Add in one encounter roll per day w/the screen we have now to bypass w/sneak roll etc.

Up your magic users AE to around 4 times the amount we have now(this number needs testing) and remove regeneration for VI,AE.You have to start thinking how your gonna use your AE now.Save your AE for combat and make potions from all the herbs you find around for after combat to heal poisons and wounds.

Change wound system to have individual wounds.So you take a wound in arm and then another attack hits causing another wound to same area(arm) and wound goes level 2 etc.The higher the level the wound the higher the difficulty modifier to heal.If you just cant heal a certain wound even you have to travel back to a healer.But DS-2 will have fast travel back to places you already been so just clicking there will take you there......with encounter rolls for more difficulty.And also large wounds will cause severe gangrene if not cured quickly! went way off track here!

Youll probably need to reduce the enemy amounts so no more being attacked by hordes.Make battles that you can sneak by and will want to from low AE left or choose to fight with uncertainty.

[SirVincealot]

@ Wolfie:

on board with the day/night cycle (I'm actually rather surprised it is not in the game) but the rest of it sounds like too much busywork.

To each his own and all that . . .

Thanks for the reply,
SirV

[bolandjd]

Wolfie - you just described Baldur's Gate I. Boy those were the days. Actually, I really enjoyed that game - especially the early part. Ever battle was a fight for your life because you only had like 20 hit points. You never knew when your sword was going to break and you'd have to pick up the weapon the orc you just killed dropped and fight on. And when your mage ran out of Schlitz, you'd better find a spot to pitch the tent and hope nothing went bump in the night. Archery was very effective in that game, even though you could "only" fit 60 arrows in your quiver. Buying that suit of full plate armor took some scrimping and saving, but you finally got it - it kicked ass. Of course, all those (quasi)realistic quirks were "fixed" in the sequal and just about every CRPG since.

I'm another one who changes clothes in Drakensand just for the role playing effect (even though it has no effect on the game). I, for one, would welcome a CRPG with a few realistic touches like watching your knight actually draw her sword from a scabbard instead of it just appearing in her hand. Or limiting the number of arrows in your quiver to a realistic number, say 20 or so, but make each one more lethal, especially at short range or against unarmored targets (ala Robin Hood:Legend of Sherwood). And please, somebody, design a (good) game that implements mounted combat. All that said, one of the things I really love about Drakensang is the weapons, armors, environments, etc actually look like real medeval stuff (mostly) rather than the hyper-stylized fantasy world stuff that you see in most CRPGs